Comments on: Total War or Surrender http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/ Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:52:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: annika http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/comment-page-2/#comment-36145 annika Sun, 29 Oct 2006 20:54:50 +0000 http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/#comment-36145 Excellent post Beth. I've been thinking about those issues myself a lot. I've argued that we cannot adopt a total war strategy because world (and American) public opinion is simply is not willing to accept that kind of carnage yet. My attitude is that there's nothing we can do at this stage to force it. Unless there is a significant decrease in violence there soon, the next president will be elected on a platform of withdrawing troops from Iraq. It doesn't matter if he's republican or democrat. (the only guy I see having the gravitas to withstand public pressure for withdrawal is Giuliani and even with him, i'm not so sure) However, I also argue that as we shrink from the fight against the worldwide Islamic jihad, and as they advance, the threat will become clearer, and severe enough that proper action, ie total war, will become possible. What I see, perhaps 10, 15, 20 years down the road (or sooner if an atomic weapon goes off) is a rise of fundamentalist islamic nations on the line of Iran, taking over significant territories and adopting an expansionist imperialist foreign policy. We already know that's their ultimate goal, they've said so. But so far, the west ignores the threat of a caliphate. Someday it will become real, because we have not stopped it. And then, total war will be necessary. We will be able to fight without regard to civilians because the enemy will be an enemy nation, not "insurgents" fighting inside a nation that's supposed to be our friend. It's a dire prediction, but I don't see things playing out any other way. Excellent post Beth. I’ve been thinking about those issues myself a lot. I’ve argued that we cannot adopt a total war strategy because world (and American) public opinion is simply is not willing to accept that kind of carnage yet. My attitude is that there’s nothing we can do at this stage to force it. Unless there is a significant decrease in violence there soon, the next president will be elected on a platform of withdrawing troops from Iraq. It doesn’t matter if he’s republican or democrat. (the only guy I see having the gravitas to withstand public pressure for withdrawal is Giuliani and even with him, i’m not so sure) However, I also argue that as we shrink from the fight against the worldwide Islamic jihad, and as they advance, the threat will become clearer, and severe enough that proper action, ie total war, will become possible. What I see, perhaps 10, 15, 20 years down the road (or sooner if an atomic weapon goes off) is a rise of fundamentalist islamic nations on the line of Iran, taking over significant territories and adopting an expansionist imperialist foreign policy. We already know that’s their ultimate goal, they’ve said so. But so far, the west ignores the threat of a caliphate. Someday it will become real, because we have not stopped it. And then, total war will be necessary. We will be able to fight without regard to civilians because the enemy will be an enemy nation, not “insurgents” fighting inside a nation that’s supposed to be our friend. It’s a dire prediction, but I don’t see things playing out any other way.

]]> By: beth http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-35707 beth Sat, 28 Oct 2006 05:31:36 +0000 http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/#comment-35707 I agree with you Violence Worker. My mother has said that when they started showing pictures of the battles during World War II she knew it would eventually lead to the people refusing to accept war. Vietnam was a perfect example of that. Losing Vietnam was a disaster for the United States - we lost a great deal of respect from the rest of the world and haven't fully regained it. I agree with what you are saying - the 24 hour coverage of the horrors of war. Especially when the MSM insist on showing it from our enemy's point of view and with a sympathetic slant for the enemy - is devastating to our efforts. I know the politicians are under enormous pressure from the people (the loudest ones at least) to play nice. I would like to see Statesmen in office rather than politicians. Statesmen who are willing to do the right thing regardless of public opinion. But I know it's the people. Many of the people of the United States don't have the stomach or the will for the fight - just as Osama bin Laden predicted. THAT is how they will defeat us - just as he predicted. I still believe there's enough of the Viking DNA cursing in our blood that at some point we will be willing to be that cruel. I just hate to think of what would have to happen to bring us to that point. I agree with you Violence Worker. My mother has said that when they started showing pictures of the battles during World War II she knew it would eventually lead to the people refusing to accept war.

Vietnam was a perfect example of that. Losing Vietnam was a disaster for the United States - we lost a great deal of respect from the rest of the world and haven’t fully regained it.

I agree with what you are saying - the 24 hour coverage of the horrors of war. Especially when the MSM insist on showing it from our enemy’s point of view and with a sympathetic slant for the enemy - is devastating to our efforts.

I know the politicians are under enormous pressure from the people (the loudest ones at least) to play nice. I would like to see Statesmen in office rather than politicians. Statesmen who are willing to do the right thing regardless of public opinion.

But I know it’s the people. Many of the people of the United States don’t have the stomach or the will for the fight - just as Osama bin Laden predicted. THAT is how they will defeat us - just as he predicted.

I still believe there’s enough of the Viking DNA cursing in our blood that at some point we will be willing to be that cruel. I just hate to think of what would have to happen to bring us to that point.

]]> By: beth http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-35705 beth Sat, 28 Oct 2006 05:23:37 +0000 http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/#comment-35705 Greg, the fact that ppl in this country aren't prepared to go that far is part of the problem. As a nation we aren't cruel enough to win this war. It wasn't the guerilla warfare that defeated us in Vietnam - it was the propaganda at home that defeated us (ala Walter Cronkite). We didn't lose battles in Vietnam, but we lost the war. We lost it because the people at home didn't support it. THAT is the lesson we should have learned. The PM of Iraq asked us NOT to leave Iraq just this week - you must have missed that on the news this week. Greg, the fact that ppl in this country aren’t prepared to go that far is part of the problem. As a nation we aren’t cruel enough to win this war.

It wasn’t the guerilla warfare that defeated us in Vietnam - it was the propaganda at home that defeated us (ala Walter Cronkite). We didn’t lose battles in Vietnam, but we lost the war. We lost it because the people at home didn’t support it. THAT is the lesson we should have learned.

The PM of Iraq asked us NOT to leave Iraq just this week - you must have missed that on the news this week.

]]> By: beth http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-35704 beth Sat, 28 Oct 2006 05:17:27 +0000 http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/#comment-35704 Thanks Carol :) I re-read it a while ago and realized it's kinda of stream of consciousness kinda thing - but thanks anyway :) Thanks Carol :) I re-read it a while ago and realized it’s kinda of stream of consciousness kinda thing - but thanks anyway :)

]]> By: beth http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-35702 beth Sat, 28 Oct 2006 05:16:18 +0000 http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/#comment-35702 Fred, I've read some of your comments on your blog and tend to agree. I'm seeing more and more people saying the same sorts of things - getting frustrated with the situation as it is and wanting to let our Soldiers fight. I do think most ppl know that going with the dems would be dangerous while we are at war. Unfortunately, most ppl think of the war as 'over there' and don't really understand that it needs to be fought. I do think we needed to go into Iraq though. Although I understand why some ppl think otherwise. I don't think it had to do with WMDs but with stragetic placement of our troops in the middle of the middle east. Fred, I’ve read some of your comments on your blog and tend to agree. I’m seeing more and more people saying the same sorts of things - getting frustrated with the situation as it is and wanting to let our Soldiers fight. I do think most ppl know that going with the dems would be dangerous while we are at war. Unfortunately, most ppl think of the war as ‘over there’ and don’t really understand that it needs to be fought.

I do think we needed to go into Iraq though. Although I understand why some ppl think otherwise. I don’t think it had to do with WMDs but with stragetic placement of our troops in the middle of the middle east.

]]> By: beth http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-35700 beth Sat, 28 Oct 2006 05:06:01 +0000 http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/#comment-35700 mudkitty - I don't remember where I got the photos of those posters, so I can't answer the question. However, most things in North Korea are retro looking. (I'm assuming you are referring to the North Korean posters). mudkitty - I don’t remember where I got the photos of those posters, so I can’t answer the question. However, most things in North Korea are retro looking. (I’m assuming you are referring to the North Korean posters).

]]> By: mudkitty http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-35662 mudkitty Sat, 28 Oct 2006 02:57:47 +0000 http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/#comment-35662 May I ask what era these posters are from? Are they current? They have such a retro look to them. May I ask what era these posters are from? Are they current? They have such a retro look to them.

]]> By: Violence Worker http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-35543 Violence Worker Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:10:08 +0000 http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/#comment-35543 Beth, Your essay is magnnificent. I might beg a difference with some of what you say. Yes, our politicians seem timid in the prosecution, but their timidity is in large part the public's timidity. The thought of all out war, with its inherent problem of killing or maiming noncombatants is hard for the "civilized" person to comprehend. Our technology allows us to be more surgical in our prosecution, but that also usually allows our enemy to blend with the civilians as to limit his own losses. There is technology on the horizon that is supposed to be nonlethal, yet render the enemy incapable. Right. With a color televison in every home, the site of a dead child send people will send a million letters cascading into a congresscritter's office. It's that pressure that intimidates them and our soldiers suffer for it with trying to apply the restraint that is demanded. VW Beth,

Your essay is magnnificent. I might beg a difference with some of what you say. Yes, our politicians seem timid in the prosecution, but their timidity is in large part the public’s timidity. The thought of all out war, with its inherent problem of killing or maiming noncombatants is hard for the “civilized” person to comprehend.

Our technology allows us to be more surgical in our prosecution, but that also usually allows our enemy to blend with the civilians as to limit his own losses. There is technology on the horizon that is supposed to be nonlethal, yet render the enemy incapable. Right.

With a color televison in every home, the site of a dead child send people will send a million letters cascading into a congresscritter’s office. It’s that pressure that intimidates them and our soldiers suffer for it with trying to apply the restraint that is demanded.

VW

]]> By: TexasFred http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-35528 TexasFred Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:25:00 +0000 http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/#comment-35528 Exactly what I have been saying, if we're not going to FIGHT, and fight to WIN, let's get out now... The BS of Vietnam will not work today, GWB has destroyed the Republicans this election cycle, the Dems are walking death but after what GWB has put the nation thru in his ill-advised invasion of Iraq, a lot of folks WILL vote straight Dem, I won't, but some will, just because.. Exactly what I have been saying, if we’re not going to FIGHT, and fight to WIN, let’s get out now… The BS of Vietnam will not work today, GWB has destroyed the Republicans this election cycle, the Dems are walking death but after what GWB has put the nation thru in his ill-advised invasion of Iraq, a lot of folks WILL vote straight Dem, I won’t, but some will, just because..

]]> By: gregdn http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-35479 gregdn Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:42:31 +0000 http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/#comment-35479 The lesson some of us baby boomers learned from Vietnam is to not get stuck in guerilla warfare situation. Unfortunately 'W' didn't get that message. You act like our troops are holding back in Iraq. While you're right - somebody supports the snipers and the guys putting out the IED's, what should we do, shoot every other civilian until they turn in the perpetrators? Are you prepared to go that far? I'm not, and I hope you're not either. These people don't want us in their country and that's why they support the insurgency. The lesson some of us baby boomers learned from Vietnam is to not get stuck in guerilla warfare situation. Unfortunately ‘W’ didn’t get that message.

You act like our troops are holding back in Iraq. While you’re right - somebody supports the snipers and the guys putting out the IED’s, what should we do, shoot every other civilian until they turn in the perpetrators? Are you prepared to go that far?

I’m not, and I hope you’re not either.
These people don’t want us in their country and that’s why they support the insurgency.

]]> By: carol http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-35409 carol Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:38:12 +0000 http://military.rightpundits.com/2006/10/27/total-war-or-surrender/#comment-35409 Wow! You said that so well. It is exactly what is going on. Wow! You said that so well. It is exactly what is going on.

]]>