Am I the only one who has wondered why there have been a couple of incidents of British military personnel being captured by Iranians without any resistance from the British?
It seemed odd to me each time. After all, the British are known to be disciplined and fierce warriors. The British are certainly known to have one of the best Naval services in the world. That’s their reputation. It has been for centuries. The British Navy defeated the Spanish Armada for crying out loud.
A senior American commander in the Gulf has said his men would have fired on the Iranian Republican Guard rather than let themselves be taken hostage.
In a dramatic illustration of the different postures adopted by British and US forces working together in Iraq, Lt-Cdr Erik Horner - who has been working alongside the task force to which the 15 captured Britons belonged - said he was “surprised” the British marines and sailors had not been more aggressive.
Asked by The Independent whether the men under his command would have fired on the Iranians, he said: “Agreed. Yes. I don’t want to second-guess the British after the fact but our rules of engagement allow a little more latitude. Our boarding team’s training is a little bit more towards self-preservation.”
The executive officer - second-in-command on USS Underwood, the frigate working in the British-controlled task force with HMS Cornwall - said: “The unique US Navy rules of engagement say we not only have a right to self-defence but also an obligation to self-defence. They [the British] had every right in my mind and every justification to defend themselves rather than allow themselves to be taken. Our reaction was, ‘Why didn’t your guys defend themselves?’”
The British had been warned by the CIA that the Iranians were looking for retribution for the capture of Iranian operatives in Iraq. Over the past two months over 300 Iranians intelligence officers have been captured in Iraq. The British did not raise their threat level in response to the Iranian threat.
Apparently, the British rules of engagement are even more restrictive than the American rules of engagement.
Yesterday, the former First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Alan West, said British rules of engagement were “very much de-escalatory, because we don’t want wars starting … Rather than roaring into action and sinking everything in sight we try to step back and that, of course, is why our chaps were, in effect, able to be captured and taken away.”
Can you just imagine what that kind of statement does for the morale of the British Troops!
Meanwhile, eight British Sailors and seven Royal Marines are being ‘interrogated’ in Tehran. One of them is a new mother.
No one questions the bravery, valor, gallantry and aggressiveness of the British military men and women. What I question is the rules of engagement under which they are having to operate. I thought our military had their hands tied, it’s nothing compared to this.
Would you want your son or daughter having to go to war without the ability to defend themselves?
I imagine Winston Churchill is undoubtedly rolling over in his grave.
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I am a retired British army officer and I can but completely agree with both your and the Yank navy comments. What is the point of having a ‘ naval task force ‘ if it cannot even defend its own?
Clearly the boarding parties would have had communications with the Cornwall. I have some experience of the boats used for these operations - they would make a difficult target for a larger naval vessel - Nelson must be turning over in his grave and the officer, or senior nco, in charge of this party must have been a wimp.
I served in many theatres where we had restricted rules of engagement but they never excluded the right to self defence.
An absolute disgrace
Beth - Like Bob F and I mentioned yesterday, they got seized by the Iraniacs at 10 AM in the Gulf - without air cover or back-up? NOW the truth surfaces that the ‘Rules of Non-Engagement’ were a bigtime Politically Correct player here.
The Brits used the Iraniac tactics on us that led to the War of 1812 for God’s sake! I pity the Royal Marines and Navy personnel that serve in the Gulf under these pussy ‘PC’ rules of non-engagement. And NOW the Iraniacs and Islamomaniacs know that the Brits are…paper lions? Thanks for this great story and well done Beth. These 15 Brit hostages are in for a LONG captivity - like ours were in 1979 & 1980 times 444 days! And PM Tony Blair is no President Ronald Wilson Reagan …… + IRAN + …….!
Life in the gulf is about to get interesting.
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I agree with the Churchill / Nelson comments. There may well have been errors over how the encounter between the two navies was handled, but I have heard from UK military bloggers that our servicemen were outgunned (six Iranian boats with bow-mounted machine guns vs. 15 personnel with sidearms). Perhaps the Cornwall should have engaged anyway.
I hope predictions that the hostages will not be released are wrong, but in the meantime we need to be careful that a supine policy response doesn’t encourage further Iranian aggression - though my hopes aren’t high.
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Beth - Before leaving work this morning I dialed up a public national radio AM station at 0500 to listen to the BBC from London where it was 10 AM. After ten minutes, I turned the BBC off for they DID NOT mention anything about their 15 Brit military personnel having been taken hostage on Friday - nothing. The BBC talked about slavery reparations and African turmoil and Quebec Canada crapola, but nothing about PM Tony Blair nor their hostages. I dialed up an Associated Press AM station at 0600 and within a minute they were mentioning and discussing PM Tony Blair and the 15 Brit hostages! When Bill O’Reilly says the BBC is far left - they are far left of evil! And we realize that CNN, CBS and NBC are treasonous!! Happy Holy Season of Lent & Easter Beth.
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Yep, your damm right Americans would have fought back, and guess what, more than likely be killed. Thankfully we think before we shoot, maybe if you thought abit more you’d have alot less dead American soldiers.
Believe it or not you don’t need a sledge hammer to crack an egg!!
Ted Guinness, your cowardly tactic of think before shooting will only lead to more and more brazen acts by the Iranians. Jimmy Carter used this tactic when our hostages were taken in 79 which led to the Soviets invading Afghanistan because he was too careful, or as the Iranians gleefully said then, “America will do nothing.”
Our doing nothing eventually led to all other attacks on America during Clinton’s “think before shooting” regime. That worked well for us, do you think?
Your clever “thinking before shooting” in 1979 led directly to almost 3000 American deaths. You are right. In that very instant when you surrender there might be, might be, some deaths; but the policy you so admire only leads to eventual, certain death in even greater numbers.
Hezbollah has been completely re-armed by Iran yet they hesitate to kidnap another Israeli soldier. Why not? I’m certain they would love to do it again. Could it be that the last disproportionate response is holding them back?
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Bernie - Your acts of shoot first ask questions later speak for themselves:
1991 – 9 British Soldiers killed by US A10
2002 – 4 Canadian Soldiers killed by USN F16
2003 – 1 British Soldier killed by US A10
Out of interest, the policy I so admire is that of intelligent warfare. By the way, I am a Royal Marines Commando, with 19 years of service including operational experience. Therefore, I do take offence to your use of the word ‘cowardly’. Which is a word I would use for the large number of so called Irish Americans, who financially supported the IRA armed struggle in Northern Ireland and main land Great Britain for over thirty years (One mans freedom fighter is another’s terrorist).
In addition, those captured are my own… Fellow Royal Marines, so believe me your use of word ‘Cowardly’ is a slur on those men (and woman) currently held by Iran.
I cannot imagine that the British military feel their government has their back when they are not even allowed to defend themselves against attacks.
Ted and Bernie - we are on the same side here, boys!!!!
Ted, don’t you think there is a possibility that we have had more casualties because we have more Troops in the Middle East? I don’t know what the stats are in terms of percentages, but I think that would be a more accurate assessment.
Friendly fire incidents happen in all wars, as you know. And they don’t just happen on the American side. No one wants that. Please also take into account that those friendly fire incidents occurred while American planes were providing air cover for the British and/or Canadian operations on the ground. Had the Brits or Canadians been providing air cover it could have just as easily been the other way around.
Ted, I NEVER said nor do I believe that the British are cowardly. I would never even think that. They, of all people, have a history of standing for good against evil. The British stood alone against the Germans in WWII for a very long time - and survived! There is nothing cowardly about the British. I have mostly British blood (and Scot-Irish, of course - but not Shanty Irish! lol).
What bothers ME is that those men were sent out without proper orders to protect themselves and without cover. That is what bothers me.
The rules of engagement are such that our guys (and even more so yours) are handicapped in fighting this enemy. They would not be so aggressive towards us if they knew we’d unleash our power against them. They are no where near as good Soldiers as our boys are. They know it, so they count on the fact that we value life and honor the decent treatment of fellow human beings. They use that against us.
You bring up the IRA and use the line ‘One mans freedom fighter is another’s terrorist. That’s the same ol’ argument the left always uses, which leaves me wondering if you are just repeating the talking points.
The difference is who are our enemies. I’m sure the SS felt that God was on their side. Every army does. But that doesn’t mean we have to choose that side.
I’m sure the jihadists are quite sure that allah wants them to fly planes into our buildings, push Israel into the sea and kill Americans and Jews (and British, btw). That doesn’t make them right.
Are they terrorists or freedom fighters? Who cares - they are my enemies. Sometimes you have to chose a side. Sometimes it really matters which side you chose.
Agreed Anna - you said that much less wordy than me! ]:-)
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Fair Play Beth, I’ll stand down. The rules of engagement are exactly that though, rules unfortunately we have to play by. If the ROE allowed them to engage, then believe me it would have happened. However like you eluded to, our hands are handcuff.
As for the history of the ‘Irish Struggle’ I could bore you death with it all; that could be a decent thread on it’s own. For now lets hope this current situation ends soon, another front in the war on terror being opened is the last thing both our nations need.
BSC: Ted, I agree, none of us want another front in this war opened. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be up to us. THEY want it opened and are thumbing their noses at us. If their aggressions go unanswered it will only get worse. History teaches us that.
btw - no need to stand down. I’m just saying, we are on the same side. I’m ANGRY out guys hands are tied by what I perceive to be unreasonable ROE. It’s bad for their morale and it puts them in untenable situations with an enemy who knows they won’t/can’t fight back.
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Yeah man! Bomb them! Otherwise they will be held for years! Oh wait — they’ve been released! You people amaze me. Shoot first, ask questions later — morons.
BSC: ‘you people’?? Who is ‘you people’? Oh, and, the end of the story hasn’t been written.
quote: “The British Navy defeated the Spanish Armada for crying out loud.”
It took the Dutch and the fabulous Brits to take down the Spanish Armada. Without the earlier Dutch victories, the Armada would have taken much longer to remove as the dominant force.
Interesting parallel to our present “allied” situation in the Gulf. Americans going to rhetoric -what is done under American ROE… hopefully this Iranian bullshit will change things for the future, and let them know some good ol’ Western rounds may be coming their way if they pull off any more illegal (have they disputed British GPS records yet?) crap. I wish there had been a fight, perhaps selfishly, because I was not there surrounded by bad guys.
I am American, have been to Gulf many times in US Navy. These buggers need some rounds sent their way when they break the rules. We used to do that to Iran when they screwed up. Why so chicken shit now?
I know all about Iranian “swarm” tactics. They are the best in the world at it, been doing it for over 20 years. Brit/US knows it in-depth. But we are still using cold-war big-asset tactics against cheap little boats full of punks. Unbelievable.
I am so tired of rhetoric.
The so called elite Royal marines surrendering without a fight I’m ashamed to be British,I can’t believe they gave in without a fight to a bunch of hooligans in couple poorly equipped rubber boats,I certainly can’t imagine the U.S marines doing the same,they would have fought and been victorious even if some of them died they would have honoured their unit and they country unlike our wimpish Royal marines,I’m sure even female U.S marines would have done better than ours,now how can our American cousins take our forces seriously and rely on us in future conflicts,when we look so pathetically week and stupid?